I started working years ago to engage large datacenters, learn what their problems are and try to craft solutions for their problems. It’s taken years, but we engaged them, learned, changed how we thought about storage and began creating solutions that are being deployed at scale.
We’ve started to do the same with the Chinese Internet giants. They’re growing at an incredible rate. They have similar problems, but it’s surprising how different their solution approaches are. Each one is unique. And we’re constantly learning from these guys.
So to wrap up the blog series on my interview with CIO & CEO magazine, here are the last two questions to explain a bit more.
CEO & CIO: Please use examples to tell the stories about the forward-looking technologies and architectures that LSI has jointly developed with Internet giants.
While our host bus adapters (HBAs) and MegaRAID® solutions have been part of the hyperscale Internet companies’ infrastructure since the beginning, we have only recently worked very closely with them to drive joint innovation. In 2009 I led the first LSI engagement with what we then called “mega datacenters.” It took a while to understand what they were doing and why. By 2010 we realized there were specialized needs, and began to imagine new hardware products that worked with these datacenters. Out of this work came the realization that flash was important for efficiency and capability, and the “invention” of LSI® Nytro™ product portfolio. (More are in the pipeline). We have worked closely with hyperscale datacenters to evolve and tune these solutions, to where Nytro products have become the backbone of their main revenue platforms. Facebook has been a vitally important partner in evolving our Nytro platform – teaching us what was truly needed, and now much of their infrastructure runs on LSI products. These same products are a good fit for other hyperscale customers, and we are slowly winning many of the large ones.
Looking forward, we are partnered with several Internet giants in the U.S. and China to work on cold storage solutions, and more importantly shared DAS (Distributed DAS: D-DAS) solutions. We have been demonstrating prototypes. These solutions enable pooled architectures and rack scale architecture, and can be made to work tightly with software-defined datacenters (SDDCs). They simplify management and resource allocation – making task deployment more efficient and easier. Shared DAS solutions increase infrastructure efficiency and improves lifecycle management of components. And they have the potential to radically improve application performance and infrastructure costs.
Looking further into the future, we see even more radical changes in silicon supporting transport protocols and storage models, and in rack scale architectures supporting storage and pooled memory. And cold storage is a huge though, some would say, boring problem that we are also focused on – storing lots of data for free and using no power to do it… but I really can’t talk about any of that.
CEO & CIO: LSI maintains good contact with big Internet companies in China. What are the biggest differences between dealing with these Internet enterprises and dealing with traditional partners?
Yes, we have a very good relationship with large Chinese Internet companies. In fact, I will be visiting Tencent, Alibaba and Baidu in a few weeks. One of the CTOs I would like to say is a friend. That is, we have fun talking together about the future.
These meetings have evolved. The first meetings LSI had about two years ago were sales calls, or support for OEM storage solutions. These accomplished very little. Once we began visiting as architects speaking to architects, real dialogs began. Our CEO has been spending time in China meeting with these Internet companies both to learn, and to make it clear that they are important to us, and we want a chance to solve their problems. But the most interesting conversations have been the architectural ones. There have been very clear changes in the two years I have traveled within China – from standard enterprise to hyperscale architectures.
We’ve received fascinating feedback on architecture, use, application profiles, platforms, problems and goals. We have strong engagement with the U.S. Internet giants. At the highest level, the Chinese Internet companies have similar problems and goals. But the details quickly diverge because of revenue per user, resources, power availability, datacenter ownership and Internet company age. The use of flash is very different.
The Chinese Internet giants are at an amazing change point. Most are ready for explosive growth of infrastructure and deployment of cloud services. Most are changing from standard OEM systems and architectures to self-designed hyperscale systems after experimenting with Scorpio and microserver deployments. Several, like JD.com (an Amazon-like company) are moving from hosted to self-built infrastructure. And there seems to be a general realization that the datacenter has changed from a compute-centric model to a dataflow model, where storage and network dictate how much work gets done more than the CPU does. These giants are leveraging their experience and capability to move very quickly, and in a few cases are working to create true pooled rack level architectures much like Facebook and Google have started in the U.S. In fact, Baidu is similar to Facebook in this approach, but is different in its longer term goals for the architecture.
The Chinese companies are amazingly diverse, even within one datacenter, and arguments on architectural direction are raging within these Internet giants – it’s healthy and exciting. However, the innovations that are coming are similar to those developed by large U.S. Internet companies. Personally I have found these Internet companies much more exciting and satisfying to work with than traditional OEMs. The speed and cadence of advancement, the recognition of problems and their importance, the focus on efficiency and optimization have been much more exciting. And the youthful mentality and view to problems, without being burdened by “the way we’ve always done this” has been wonderful.
Also see these blogs of mine over the past year, where you can read more about some of these changes:
“Postcard from Shenzhen: China’s hyperscale datacenter growth, mixed with a more traditional approach”
“China in the clouds, again”
“China: A lot of talk about resource pooling, a better name for disaggregation”
Or see them (and others) all here.
Summary: So it’s taken years, but we engaged U.S. Internet giants, learned about their problems, changed how we thought about storage and began creating solutions that are now being deployed at scale. And we’re constantly learning from these guys. Constantly, because their problems are constantly changing.
We’ve now started to do the same with the Chinese Internet giants. They have similar problems, and will need similar solutions, but they are not the same. And just like the U.S. Internet giants, each one is unique.
Tags: Alibaba, Amazon, Baidu, CEO & CIO Magazine, China, cloud services, cold storage, D-DAS, DAS, datacenter, datacenter ecosystem, direct attached storage, distributed DAS, Facebook, flash, flash storage, Google, HBA, host bus adapter, hyperscale datacenter, Internet, JD.com, MegaRAID, OEM, original equipment manufacturer, Scorpio, Tencent
I’ve been travelling to China quite a bit over the last year or so. I’m sitting in Shenzhen right now (If you know Chinese internet companies, you’ll know who I’m visiting). The growth is staggering. I’ve had a bit of a trains, planes, automobiles experience this trip, and that’s exposed me to parts of China I never would have seen otherwise. Just to accommodate sheer population growth and the modest increase in wealth, there is construction everywhere – a press of people and energy, constant traffic jams, unending urban centers, and most everything is new. Very new. It must be exciting to be part of that explosive growth. What a market. I mean – come on – there are 1.3 billion potential users in China.
The amazing thing for me is the rapid growth of hyperscale datacenters in China, which is truly exponential. Their infrastructure growth has been 200%-300% CAGR for the past few years. It’s also fantastic walking into a building in China, say Baidu, and feeling very much at home – just like you walked into Facebook or Google. It’s the same young vibe, energy, and ambition to change how the world does things. And it’s also the same pleasure – talking to architects who are super-sharp, have few technical prejudices, and have very little vanity – just a will to get to business and solve problems. Polite, but blunt. We’re lucky that they recognize LSI as a leader, and are willing to spend time to listen to our ideas, and to give us theirs.
Even their infrastructure has a similar feel to the US hyperscale datacenters. The same only different. ;-)
A lot of these guys are growing revenue at 50% per year, several getting 50% gross margin. Those are nice numbers in any country. One has $100’s of billions in revenue. And they’re starting to push out of China. So far their pushes into Japan have not gone well, but other countries should be better. They all have unique business models. “We” in the US like to say things like “Alibaba is the Chinese eBay” or “Sina Weibo is the Chinese Twitter”…. But that’s not true – they all have more hybrid business models, unique, and so their datacenter goals, revenue and growth have a slightly different profile. And there are some very cool services that simply are not available elsewhere. (You listening Apple®, Google®, Twitter®, Facebook®?) But they are all expanding their services, products and user base. Interestingly, there is very little public cloud in China. So there are no real equivalents to Amazon’s services or Microsoft’s Azure. I have heard about current development of that kind of model with the government as initial customer. We’ll see how that goes.
100’s of thousands of servers. They’re not the scale of Google, but they sure are the scale of Facebook, Amazon, Microsoft…. It’s a serious market for an outfit like LSI. Really it’s a very similar scale now to the US market. Close to 1 million servers installed among the main 4 players, and exabytes of data (we’ve blown past mere petabytes). Interestingly, they still use many co-location facilities, but that will change. More important – they’re all planning to probably double their infrastructure in the next 1-2 years – they have to – their growth rates are crazy.
Often 5 or 6 distinct platforms, just like the US hyperscale datacenters. Database platforms, storage platforms, analytics platforms, archival platforms, web server platforms…. But they tend to be a little more like a rack of traditional servers that enterprise buys with integrated disk bays, still a lot of 1G Ethernet, and they are still mostly from established OEMs. In fact I just ran into one OEM’s American GM, who I happen to know, in Tencent’s offices today. The typical servers have 12 HDDs in drive bays, though they are starting to look at SSDs as part of the storage platform. They do use PCIe® flash cards in some platforms, but the performance requirements are not as extreme as you might imagine. Reasonably low latency and consistent latency are the premium they are looking for from these flash cards – not maximum IOPs or bandwidth – very similar to their American counterparts. I think hyperscale datacenters are sophisticated in understanding what they need from flash, and not requiring more than that. Enterprise could learn a thing or two.
Some server platforms have RAIDed HDDs, but most are direct map drives using a high availability (HA) layer across the server center – Hadoop® HDFS or self-developed Hadoop like platforms. Some have also started to deploy microserver archival “bit buckets.” A small ARM® SoC with 4 HDDs totaling 12 TBytes of storage, giving densities like 72 TBytes of file storage in 2U of rack. While I can only find about 5,000 of those in China that are the first generation experiments, it’s the first of a growing wave of archival solutions based on lower performance ARM servers. The feedback is clear – they’re not perfect yet, but the writing is on the wall. (If you’re wondering about the math, that’s 5,000 x 12 TBytes = 60 Petabytes….)
Yes, it’s important, but maybe more than we’re used to. It’s harder to get licenses for power in China. So it’s really important to stay within the envelope of power your datacenter has. You simply can’t get more. That means they have to deploy solutions that do more in the same power profile, especially as they move out of co-located datacenters into private ones. Annually, 50% more users supported, more storage capacity, more performance, more services, all in the same power. That’s not so easy. I would expect solar power in their future, just as Apple has done.
Here’s where it gets interesting. They are developing a cousin to OpenCompute that’s called Scorpio. It’s Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu, and China Telecom so far driving the standard. The goals are similar to OpenCompute, but more aligned to standardized sub-systems that can be co-mingled from multiple vendors. There is some harmonization and coordination between OpenCompute and Scorpio, and in fact the Scorpio companies are members of OpenCompute. But where OpenCompute is trying to change the complete architecture of scale-out clusters, Scorpio is much more pragmatic – some would say less ambitious. They’ve finished version 1 and rolled out about 200 racks as a “test case” to learn from. Baidu was the guinea pig. That’s around 6,000 servers. They weren’t expecting more from version 1. They’re trying to learn. They’ve made mistakes, learned a lot, and are working on version 2.
Even if it’s not exciting, it will have an impact because of the sheer size of deployments these guys are getting ready to roll out in the next few years. They see the progression as 1) they were using standard equipment, 2) they’re experimenting and learning from trial runs of Scorpio versions 1 and 2, and then they’ll work on 3) new architectures that are efficient and powerful, and different.
Information is pretty sketchy if you are not one of the member companies or one of their direct vendors. We were just invited to join Scorpio by one of the founders, and would be the first group outside of China to do so. If that all works out, I’ll have a much better idea of the details, and hopefully can influence the standards to be better for these hyperscale datacenter applications. Between OpenCompute and Scorpio we’ll be seeing a major shift in the industry – a shift that will undoubtedly be disturbing to a lot of current players. It makes me nervous, even though I’m excited about it. One thing is sure – just as the server market volume is migrating from traditional enterprise to hyperscale datacenter (25-30% of the server market and growing quickly), we’re starting to see a migration to Chinese hyperscale datacenters from US-based ones. They have to grow just to stay still. I mean – come on – there are 1.3 billion potential users in China….
Tags: Alibaba, Amazon, Apple, ARM, Baidu, China, China Telecom, datacenter, Facebook, Google, Hadoop, hard disk drive, HDD, hyperscale, Microsoft, OpenCompute, Scorpio, Shenzhen, Sina Weibo, solid state drive, SSD, Tencent, Twitter